Curse

Randomway Ftw · Mar 08, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

If they nerf BoA, Sins will use Flurry. It doesn't affect dagger skill damage, so it works well with this too, it was already tested. Sins use Burst because it's the best option, not the only one.

Flurry = fail, even if it doesn't reduce skill damage, it still affects the base damage, why would you want to gimp your damage on a damage character?

Other options include frenzy which is suicidal on a sin, and you need a cancel stance, I'm pretty sure Brehon ran a frezny sin way back though.

Flail may work because your target is already snared from shadow prison.

TF is ok but has a slower speed.

Tiger stance has a longer recharge (but matches prison), and only lasts 4 seconds, blocks or misses screw with the chain anyway, and boa sins usual have expose defenses helping to negate the drawback of this skill.

Out of those choices I would take flail or TF, maybe even Tiger Stance

Hyunsai · Mar 08, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Flail is not an option because of the 4 adrenaline.

Tiger Fury is 10 energy, so you need 30 base energy to start the chain, not that great for 25% IAS.

That's true, I forgot Tiger's stance. 4 seconds is enough for the combo.

So after BoA, we will have to adress Tiger's Stance, heeh.

bryann380 · Mar 08, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

I could care less about PvP but looking at this from my PvE channeling rit's point of view, I'll comment on it. I didn't really notice the changes to Gaze From Beyond and Spirit Rift until like 30 minutes after the update. I was still kicking butt at Boreas Seabed. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain

looks at the Heket Rit Boss in Vabbi with the 420 dmg (!) Spirit Rift spam

I have 16 Channeling and my Spirit Rift does 142 damage. But to do 420, by my calculations, that would result in the boss having a Channeling level of around 55-56. Anet, you keep talking about making balances but when will they ever apply to monster bosses?? I strongly agree at least some of them in all 3 campaigns are indeed very overpowered. If anything needs to be nerfed, it's THEM.

Kakumei · Mar 08, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryann380

I have 16 Channeling and my Spirit Rift does 142 damage. But to do 420, by my calculations, that would result in the boss having a Channeling level of around 55-56. Anet, you keep talking about making balances but when will they ever apply to monster bosses?? I strongly agree at least some of them in all 3 campaigns are indeed very overpowered. If anything needs to be nerfed, it's THEM.

There certainly isn't such a skill as Prot Spirit no sir and the PvE bosses aren't static either nuh-uh!

unmatchedfury · Mar 08, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Hero areanas hasn't been helped that much. Holding builds are still going to be plenty effective. with 3 holding the shrine and one running around capping (note: the capper is fast and usually has a run skill, simply put if you come for him he runs before you can get in range. no confrontation for you t o win. so you can sit there and cap the shrine if you like, the solo capper is doing his busness on other shrines while his team has 2 pips of regen.

point being i don't think spirits are gonna disapear anytime soon from HvH.

explodemyheart · Mar 08, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryann380

I have 16 Channeling and my Spirit Rift does 142 damage. But to do 420, by my calculations, that would result in the boss having a Channeling level of around 55-56. Anet, you keep talking about making balances but when will they ever apply to monster bosses?? I strongly agree at least some of them in all 3 campaigns are indeed very overpowered. If anything needs to be nerfed, it's THEM.

There's nothing to balance, really. Anet specifically made those bosses to do a lot of damage. Bosses in all 3 of the chapters get "special abilities". They all have +3 health regen, bosses in Prophecies have natural resistance against conditions and hexes, Factions and Nightfall bosses have double damage.

It shouldn't be a problem because humans can learn and adapt whereas the game AI cannot.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 08, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

*famous sayings police appear*

It's 'I couldn't care less'.

Sorry, it's just that there was a topic somewhere about all that, and I actually kept saying it wrong before reading that topic. It's time to spread the word so we all do it justice.

/me strikes a pose and runs off a cliff

'Weeeeeeeeeeeeee'

Buzzer · Mar 08, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryann380

I have 16 Channeling and my Spirit Rift does 142 damage. But to do 420, by my calculations, that would result in the boss having a Channeling level of around 55-56. Anet, you keep talking about making balances but when will they ever apply to monster bosses?? I strongly agree at least some of them in all 3 campaigns are indeed very overpowered. If anything needs to be nerfed, it's THEM.

They have attributes at 16 like you but because their level is higher than yours, they do more damage. On top of that, the damage is doubled because of their boss status.
Just move out of the way of Spirit Rift, or use prots like the other guy said.
Bosses should never be nerfed. PvE isnt hard.

Bastian · Mar 08, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Flail is not an option because of the 4 adrenaline.

You do realize that 4 adrenaline isn't hard to come up with? Just build your adrenaline like any other adrenaline spike and then use SP. GG.

Carl Butanananowski · Mar 08, 2007, 04:38 AM // 04:38

10 energy shadow prison will screw over many assassin builds. D:

SerenityAlum · Mar 08, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

A question/observation from a PvE player: The replies appear to be from PvP players - is this correct? If this is correct then the PvE metagame impact is not being addressed; so is one to assume that PvP trials will continue to dominate skill nerfs/buffs and the PvE impacts will be ignored?

Razz L Dazzle · Mar 08, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenityAlum

A question/observation from a PvE player: The replies appear to be from PvP players - is this correct? If this is correct then the PvE metagame impact is not being addressed; so is one to assume that PvP trials will continue to dominate skill nerfs/buffs and the PvE impacts will be ignored?

sounds good to me

VitisVinifera · Mar 08, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenityAlum

A question/observation from a PvE player: The replies appear to be from PvP players - is this correct? If this is correct then the PvE metagame impact is not being addressed; so is one to assume that PvP trials will continue to dominate skill nerfs/buffs and the PvE impacts will be ignored?

there's a pretty well-established track record here: the pvp side of the game is where virtually all skill nerfs originate, from some quirky flavor of the week build I am completely obvlivious of and couldn't care less about. We continue to be in this widening rift between the communities that don't have much to do with each other. I know this has been repeated ad nauseum, but anet needs to treat each entity seperately, whether it's nerfs or stupid crap like fow/uw access. And I know they won't. So we continue to have these situations and debates.

kvndoom · Mar 08, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenityAlum

A question/observation from a PvE player: The replies appear to be from PvP players - is this correct? If this is correct then the PvE metagame impact is not being addressed; so is one to assume that PvP trials will continue to dominate skill nerfs/buffs and the PvE impacts will be ignored?

Haha, you said "PVE metagame." THAT is hilarious.

I play both types of the game, and you have to understand that PVE is too static to have most balances revolve around it. The same monsters with the same skills in the same locations every time. You can't really revolve the game around that.

If you don't PVP then you can't appreciate why changes like this are important. But I've put in probably 3000 or more hours in PVE over the past 2 years, so I know also that anything can be overcome in that type of play either through build or attrition. I'm not here to encourage anyone to play the game differently than they like; but you have to understand that sometimes a skill you don't see as overpowered or broken in PVE is actually game-breaking on the other side of the fence. Heck, that even goes for different subsets of PVP; Lamentation is something you'd almost never see in RA or TA because coming from just one Rit it's not that big a deal, considering its recharge. But when you get to 6v6 or 8v8 and have multiple copies of 100+ armor-ignoring damage pounding the same target in a 1/4 second window, then it's a whole different perspective.

Guildmaster Cain · Mar 08, 2007, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzer

They have attributes at 16 like you but because their level is higher than yours, they do more damage. On top of that, the damage is doubled because of their boss status.
Just move out of the way of Spirit Rift, or use prots like the other guy said.
Bosses should never be nerfed. PvE isnt hard.

Yeh I agree, but ALL 'normal' bosses are wimps, exept ALL ritualist ones. It's just UNBALANCED. Why does anet keep putting down Ritualist as the most dangerous players (strongest bosses, most elite hero) and keep nerfing all the great skills they have (Spirit Spam and Channel Spike), so it is NOT interesting to play Ritualist anymore.

Personally, I retired my Ritualist as a Spirit Spammer, after I finished Factions, because of the nerf. It has been a mule for my other characters ever since. When I discovered the new Channeling powers NF brought him, I decided to take the mule-chains off of him. But sadly I am being forced again to chain him once more.
The only reason to play Ritualist now is, that they still have overpowered, cheap healing skills (260 health for 5 ene, every 4-5 secs). But PLEASE nobody tell anet this, or they will nerf Ritualists beyond redemption.

And to come back at the spiritrifting boss: I don't mind strong bosses, but taking some down with heroes is just impossible or u have to cheat it (wont explain how, try urself). The problem with henchies is, that THEY STAY ADJECANT to you! And if you run away from spirit rift, they will respond too late. PLZ anet, make a SCATTER button for us, or some party formation button or whatever. Or make it possible to flag ALL henchies, not just 3 + whole party.

Edit: In regards to the PvE-use-topic, asked above, I also use a Hero Channeling Spike team to kill creatures in Torment. Spike is the ONLY responsable way to combat Torment Creatures (AoE nuke is STOOOPID, suicidal and makes them spam Call of Torment and before you know, you have half a million Torment Creatures swarming around you).

Deleet · Mar 08, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Haha, you said "PVE metagame." THAT is hilarious.

I play both types of the game, and you have to understand that PVE is too static to have most balances revolve around it. The same monsters with the same skills in the same locations every time. You can't really revolve the game around that.

If you don't PVP then you can't appreciate why changes like this are important. But I've put in probably 3000 or more hours in PVE over the past 2 years, so I know also that anything can be overcome in that type of play either through build or attrition. I'm not here to encourage anyone to play the game differently than they like; but you have to understand that sometimes a skill you don't see as overpowered or broken in PVE is actually game-breaking on the other side of the fence. Heck, that even goes for different subsets of PVP; Lamentation is something you'd almost never see in RA or TA because coming from just one Rit it's not that big a deal, considering its recharge. But when you get to 6v6 or 8v8 and have multiple copies of 100+ armor-ignoring damage pounding the same target in a 1/4 second window, then it's a whole different perspective.

Excatly my thoughts.

This is why, there are no overpowered skills in PvE.(from combatants point of view.)
If skill A is too powerful, ie. it's easier to beat the game, than originally planned by the devs, then it needs to be reduced. But in PvE the difficulty is low, compared to higher PvP, that it is nearly impossible for a single skill to be overpowerred, it would just be good.

There would quickly be developed builds for the good skills, and these builds be spread. In the end, everyone ends up with a good build, but not overpowered, because the computer does not complain, it simply loses.

The computer does not care, whether it was a fair battle or not, it has no emotions what so ever. I'll illustrate:

Player A uses skill X to beat player B.

A feels superior to player B, even though he may have been using a skills, that was too powerful compared to how easy it is to use, ie. Rit spikes.
Player A is happy.

B feels that skill X is overpowered, because he feels, that he put more effort into playing, than player A and should therefore have won. He may conclude that player A is lame, because he uses a broken or overpowered skill.
Player B is unhappy.

-

Player A uses skill X to beat computer B.

Player A feels superior to computer B. Player A is happy.

Computer B feels nothing, and does not change or complain.

-

I hope that my illustration helped to show that, the player's emotions are the problem here. There needs to be a certain balance between effort and effect.
If effort is too low compared to effect, then problems in ill. A will arise quickly. But sinse no computer complains, the only place where the changes would be needed, are in PvP.

-Deleet, I hope I made some sense.

Sagius Truthbarron · Mar 08, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain

And to come back at the spiritrifting boss: I don't mind strong bosses, but taking some down with heroes is just impossible or u have to cheat it (wont explain how, try urself). The problem with henchies is, that THEY STAY ADJECANT to you! And if you run away from spirit rift, they will respond too late. PLZ anet, make a SCATTER button for us, or some party formation button or whatever. Or make it possible to flag ALL henchies, not just 3 + whole party.

Try the green flag next to the one. It flags all.

Deleet · Mar 08, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

Try the green flag next to the one. It flags all.

You misunderstood, he wants to spread all seven henchmen, which is currently impossible to do. You can only efficiently spread them into 4 groups.
1. All hench.
2. 1st hero.
3. 2nd hero.
4. 3rd hero.

Some random spreading might appear due to range of weapons and casting range.

Guildmaster Cain,
You completely forgot normal pressure damage. You can't spike torment creatures, too much health for any spike that I know of. Besides, playing pressure in PvE is the easiest thing.

Guildmaster Cain · Mar 08, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

Try the green flag next to the one. It flags all.

Duh, thats why I said flag 3 heroes + all. The problem is, I want to flag ALL the henchies INDIVIDUALLY. Because if I flag 3 heroes on 3 seperate destinations, and the then I flag the rest, there will be a clutter of 4 henchies, which are vulnerable to AoE (Meteor, Dervish attacks and overpowered SPIRIT RIFT).

HolyHawk · Mar 08, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

We faced a eurospike after these changes, and honestelly, saw no change at all. We were running an agressive split, 4/4 teams, focusing mobility, so no things like infuse. Guess which map they chose. Seriouslly, remove jade isle. Burning is acceptable, jade is idiotic. At first I thought Wastrel's demise was unnecessary, but seeing how people just use it for spike, I would even vote for a 2 seconds activation.